After The Call: Stephen Collum

This week, retired firefighter Steve shares his story of prescription drug dependency, recovery, and what it took to reclaim his life.

The reality is that struggles like these are far more common in the first responder community than most people realize. That's exactly why we need to talk about them.

The more we normalize these conversations, the more people we help.

Listen now and share with someone who may need to hear it.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to After the Call, the podcast dedicated to the stories and struggles behind the badge, the turnout gear, and the uniform. Each week we'll bring you a powerful conversation with first responders, and to health professionals and advocates who are breaking the stigma, sharing their journeys, and offering real solutions. We'll talk about PTSD resilience, family impact, and the resources that can make a difference. Because the job doesn't just leave scars on the body. It affects the mind, the heart, and the people who serve alongside it. And no one should have to carry that burden away. It is after the call. So you'll find strength to be resilient.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Alright, welcome to another episode of After the Call. I'm your host, Patrick, along with Veronica. And we have Steve today. So the cool thing about Steve is I've known I've known Steve unknowingly for multiple years. Right? And then uh got in contact, and then you have an amazing story. Um we're gonna talk about about that, and you can kind of just literally say whatever you want, which is kind of cool. Cool. So uh introduction, um, give us a little bit of your background real quick, and then we'll Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Uh Stephen Collum. Um, I uh let's see, briefly worked in uh healthcare for a little bit, entry-level stuff years ago. Uh worked on ambulances, and then uh for the last 13 years, uh not not the last recent 30 years, but I worked, you know, route 13 years on the fire department for Mesa Fire. Okay, paramedic, you know, EMT paramedic firefighter. And then uh life fell apart.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Before we go to there, let's let's talk about your career first. Okay. Um like what year what year did you go through the academy?

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Oh, one, yeah, 9-11. So that happened during our academy. Wow. Yeah, it was a trip.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

How how was the academy for you?

SPEAKER_02 1:54

It was great, it was phenomenal. Um, I was supposed to be hired a couple years prior, my kid brother, who came on you know, a little bit before me. And uh so just the process and how things work and the testing, I ended up getting hired a couple years later, but I had a great group. And I, you know, I knew quite a few of the people. I'd worked on a on an ambulance in Mesa and Tempe, but largely Mesa, so I knew a lot of the folks and had friends in the department.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

How how was the culture shift like pre and post 9-11?

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Oh, um, you know, it's interesting. I'm not sure because I wasn't literally not on the job even though I was responding with these folks. For sure, people were very pro fire PD after that, military, you know. Not like so much like it is these days. So yeah, you you know, you're walking on water after that. Of course, obviously it was a huge tragedy, and you know, everybody's just like, what, you know, first time, huge major attack in America. So it definitely shifted.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Um did it change the academy setting like in regards to time or anything? Or were they just like it did not? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Yeah, they didn't move it up like maybe they might for military or somebody like that, maybe PD. But um, nope, we did about 16 weeks, I believe. And they, you know, they and they that varied all the time, the uh lengths of the academies. So yeah, that was it. Your probation after that.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Anything challenging?

SPEAKER_02 3:18

In the academy? Running even back when I was jacked into shape, not a runner. Yeah, y'all can have that. And uh, it's funny. My kid, my kid brother was a marine and is a marine, and uh man, when he got off the court, he could freaking fly. Like, you gotta run in the core. I was supposed to go in the court before I ever got on the department. And anyways, yeah, running's not my bag. I was more into weight, you know, weight training and all that.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

Alright.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

So I was the slowest last guy, one of the strongest.

SPEAKER_05 3:48

Well, someone always has to be. So yeah, that was me.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

I'll bring up the rear.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

You just carry all the good, the heavy stuff. That was it. Yeah, I was dump truck, man.

SPEAKER_04 3:56

So for sure.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

All right. So after the academy, um, do you how how does it work in regards to bidding to like a fire station? Is there a bidding? Like PD has a bidding, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Not immediately. We have to do our rookie probation, your probationary year. So it was at the time, I think it was two or three, I think it was three rotations. Since then it's changed to I think it's four. Uh so you have to go to the spots where you're signed. So mine was not fun right out of the gate. My first one was like they called it the house of hate. It was rough, man. They ate rookies alive, and it was just it was rough. You had a lot of people there with PTS and which was station four.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

Oh shit. Yeah. So extension.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Yeah. Yeah. And I worked with uh some interesting people. I didn't know it at the time, but that was my introduction to culture, which that blew me away because I was really thinking it was gonna be family, brotherhood. And in some ways, at large it was, you know, it was amazing, but in some ways I was like, whoa, culture shock. Yeah. So you gotta see it, you gotta see the dark side of it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

He actually worked for my dad.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

I worked for his dad, he was my first captain. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, he yeah, he was uh really good at what he did, you know, formerly a ranger, army ranger, and great at what he did, but I could tell he had uh looking back hindsight's 2020, right? He had a lot of PTS, and a lot of those guys had a lot of issues, and so I couldn't, I didn't understand that.

SPEAKER_05 5:16

So, what did you see the at the time of their behaviors and their actions and things?

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Just a lot of toxicity, a lot of aggression. Like for the hardest part for me, and I was a little slow on the uptake because that's my first major career. Had I served before, you learn to observe and pick things up much quicker. You know, you're closer to the culture, like in in the service or PD, whatever. And even though I was around that type of work, I'd just hadn't observed and really picked up quick enough. But with this particular house or group of folks, they would wait for you to screw up and then they'd be all over you. Didn't teach you anything, just wait for you to screw up, which is a completely like you don't know everything in the academy. Like that's ridiculous. Like, just like medic school, you're just getting the bare, bare bones and the learnings after that. So that was rough, recovered, and then went the next house I went to, um, completely different opposite. So that changes per whoever's, you know, generally it's the captain that sets the pace. You can have multi-company stations, multiple captains at a station, chiefs, whatever, but you know, you could also have just a single unit, single captain.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

So before you before you left that first your first um I guess rotation. Yeah. Any any calls that stood out for you like that first like the first type of calls you went to that were just like this is real now? Like Oh, for sure. You know, because it's it's it's not like what you see on TV, right? Yeah, yeah. Where you're going into a burning building, yeah, it's not bad draft, right? So it's like, what was the the types of calls that you were going to?

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Well, I and so obviously working on a hospital, I mean not a hospital, on an ambulance in the city, uh that particular city, I kind of understood the EMS part, no problem. I worked on you know a bunch of medical calls. It was the fire calls that stood out the most. That was awesome. Got a lot of fires in that first rotation, so it was amazing. Because that's what you think, you know, that's what you're doing it for. Firefighter. Yeah, you know, yeah. Yeah, you're a firefighter, not you know, not a paramedic where EMS is sometimes separate. We're we're together, like most of the departments here in the valley. We have EMTs and paramedics on every unit, every engine ladder. And in some cities and states, EMS is completely separate. So they'll have a paramedic and EMT, you know, in their units. So yeah, the fires were huge, and then all the other types of calls, and and then um obviously the deaths before uh I'd seen plenty of that before in hospitals and on ambulance, but um we had a protocol. We had finally developed an obvious death algorithm. So if somebody's freaking bloated and coming apart, you don't have to go in there and put the leads on them. Well, that hadn't, you know, been adapted when I got on. They're like, you know, they're a rookie, and yeah, people, man, they've been rotten for a week or two in a house, the place is the whole interior is covered in flies, and I'm like, you know, just just trying at the dime, eyes are watering and as a homicide detective.

SPEAKER_05 8:02

You were the people that I was like, why did they come in and do all this? He's been dead for yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

So but they enjoyed it like some people.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Well then they leave all the trash everywhere. This is not evidence, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:14

Yeah, go in there and just tear the scene. Yeah, so we'd go in and put the leads on them. I don't know why, but we did. And uh it's part of the kind of a hazing ritual, the new guy, you know, and who nobody wants to do that, and uh so that that kind of thing I remember distinctly. Uh just and just gnarly deaths, you know. All that stuff starts immediately. Yeah, so uh and it it's it's happened like it's been so well, first of all, it's been I left in 2013, so some of that's faded from memory. Sure. But I can clearly drive around the city, I still live in the same city and uh remember all kinds of stuff. That's toned down quite a bit because of the therapies I've done, but I can absolutely remember all that where people have died and yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

All right, so you left uh station four. Where'd you go after that?

SPEAKER_02 8:58

Station four, after that I went to station 12, which is out in Ellsworth and baseline, and that was interesting, a very different group, another dual company station, and uh just different demographic, different part of town, different, and then of course different crews, very positive, uh, way more into teaching, a lot more cohesive. We sat down together and they made sure the captains were like, We're eating together. This is you know, it's old school firefighter.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

It was also different clientele, too.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

Different clientele, different people, different crews, and all that changes per station, per shift, anything could change. So there's so many different personalities and flavors. So yeah, so different group of people, and um uh I like that part of the culture, much more cohesive, and they're kind of like that father figure type or whatever, and uh was cool, yeah. Good times. Or I met my second wife. We were actually running the track, we'd go out and run the run the track and uh submit her. You know, I thought she was just some soccer mom. And uh didn't pay much attention, and we just started chopping it up and uh one thing led to another, you know, boom goes a dynamite.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

All right, yeah. So where'd you go after that?

SPEAKER_02 10:10

After that, I went to I think it was um, let me think, station one, which was another crew that was a multi-company station. That was our big station one. Oh, I take that back, it was the old station one where we actually had a pole. So that was pretty cool. That was novel.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

It's an admin building now.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Yeah, it was a two-story building, so they actually had a fire pole and uh and that was wild, you know, hoping down the we literally, just like the movies went flying one after the other, you know, after the other down the pole. And it was cool. That's awesome. Yeah, and it had a lot more different personalities there. Um we had chiefs, so that was we literally had, let's see, at least three companies plus the battalion chief and some of the other chiefs, because it was an admin building, way more people. So you're when you're cooking, there's generally 13 people there that you're cooking for. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Would you say that you became a better chef? For sure. Because I did not know how to cook.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

Yeah, I got hired around 30, 31, late start, but um I still didn't know how to cook. You know, just typical or you know, typical eat it out bachelor of ram kind of stuff. So you have you have to learn. There's no way around it. And uh and what's interesting about that culture, sometimes the captains cook, but they don't have to. So but I always like my favorite captains were the ones that cooked on during their rotation, just always did they help clean, they you know what I mean? They don't have to do all that, and sometimes they're literally too busy. But it's those are always my favorite captains that cooked and helped clean, and just they're part of the crew.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Nice. Yeah. Alright, so get through I guess field training. Yeah, then what happens after that?

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Oh, after your probationary year, then you can um start bidding spots. Generally, the culture goes you have to, you know, you need to call the people and see if you can, you know, you have to unoffici that's not officially, unofficially you need to get a hold of the people and see if you want to, you know, if you can bid there. And they may tell you, like, no man, we got somebody else we want. And that's cool, whatever. So I don't remember, it's been a long time. I think I rode for a for a hot minute, probably rode for a year, which a lot of people do. Whenever you when you get first get hired, you'll rove. Unless you get a spot, which is rare because there's some everybody's got seniority on you. And then um whenever you're you promote to engineer um captain or you have an assignment like paramedic, one of the special teams, you know, uh TRT, paramedic, hazmat, and all that kind of swap medic, all that kind of stuff. And then whenever whenever you gain an assignment or promote, then you you rove as well. Start over. So uh I think I rove for maybe a year or two, and then got it, and I I never actually had a bid spot. I was just tempted. The only bid spot that I had was the last six years uh when I w became an airport firefighter, I was at Falconfield at that station, station eight over there by the Walmart. And uh other than that I roved everywhere. Which was cool because you get you get to see the city, all the different people kind of get an idea of where you want to go and who you want to work with.

SPEAKER_05 13:01

And were you guys 24 hour?

SPEAKER_02 13:03

24 shifts, yeah, 56 hour work week. So, say like Phoenix um does a 48 or 24 48, and then they'll get something called the Tobin Day, which is an extra day thrown in there, you know, once a month or whatever. We did a a 34 Kelly, which is kind of be like a five-day shift working every other day for five days, and you get a four off in a row. That's Mesa and several other departments had that one. I don't remember who, Gilbert Chandler. Um generally wherever you're at, it's ten days a month, ten, twenty-four hour shifts a month. So it's just about that kind of schedule. Uh a lot of people went to a 4896 two days in a row, four off. But when you're getting smoked at a busy house, as Mesa has we ran some of the highest call volume in the country at certain stations, certain places, as high as anybody else in the valley. You know, third largest department in the city, just right behind Tucson. And uh and then Phoenix was usually about three times the size of Tucson and Mesa. So but we are really busy, I remember multiple stations um doing 20 plus calls a shift. So you're just rocking the whole time, you're not sleeping, you're barely eating, and maybe you get a shower if you're lucky, you know. Especially if you had a fire. Obviously, you're gonna change clothes and shower and shit. But um yeah, it was busy. It was and that was you don't get sleep your first uh your rookie year. It depends if you get a cool captain. I had I actually had a couple cool captains where they're like, hey, you need I don't want you stupid. I don't want you sleep deprived, you know, so get some just pretend like you're breathing and you know, and take a little nap in the recliner while we're sleeping. If you can, but we know we some stations were too busy and you gotta you gotta run calls regardless. But um for the ones that wouldn't, that was rough. Uh having to learn to deal with the sleep deprivation. 24 hours could be a long time when especially when you're all jacked up. Sure. New adrenaline, coffee, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Well, and you probably want to be out there like doing stuff, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Mm-hmm. Totally. Yeah, if you want to learn the job and have uh uh any kind of a reputation for sure. And then I mean I would think most people are hiring on to do the job, you know, to be good at it and be busy. But you know, not everybody. As you guys know.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

So then uh within the fire department, like what's the different ranks and positions like you have, like uh like firefighter, then engineer, and like all that stuff. So kind of spell that out.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

So I'm not sure exactly sure the chief level, I should know that. I probably did at one point, but um start out as a probationary firefighter in your first year, then you get become a firefighter. Next up is um engineer, which is uh it's they're the junior officer, captains and senior officers, so those are both promotions. So firefighter, engineer, captain, then you got battalion chiefs, and then you got several different chiefs up you know above that, deputy chiefs, and you know, all kinds of levels of chiefs.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Gotcha. So the engineer is the one that drives the truck, and then he also runs everything on the truck as typically yes. People are in the house or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

Yeah, that's the engineers tip, but we we're all driver operator certified. So we all had to learn to drive the truck. That's usually a two-year certification. You're going out retesting every couple years, pumping the truck, you know, there's a pump test, and you have to do a driving aspect of it. Um, so it wasn't uncommon for firefighters to have to step up, hop up to the front seat to drive, or even act captain. You know, you've got a captain that's has a call or something going on, they take off. Um, you know, it wasn't uncommon at all to have paramedic captains where we go to the hospital and they have to ride in. So we go back as three-person, go back into service, captains finish it up, getting the drugs restocked or whatever, a paramedic captain. So it could any number of things could happen, but firefighters have to be able to step up and drive and and act, you know, at least do some basic, you know, incident command and all that.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

So you don't just be like shotgun, you gotta jump in. Sometimes it was.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Yeah, sometimes totally. But yeah, it was fun. It was it was good times. I didn't mind driving. The DLC stuff had enact much. Um I just started thinking about that, even though I was coming, and we'll talk about that, but I was just coming unglued. I was still thinking about promoting, which just been a bit bigger mess. But uh it's you typically you only want to do so many years. I mean, promoting it's not just pay, but it's longevity on your body. Firefighting is the roughest, they're doing all the work in the back typically. And at some point, the captains they literally just had them stay on the radio and observe and babysit. They're giving incident reports, keeping an eye on their crews, which is good because we if you get a captain that's working super hard, not paying attention, you're you're in summer fires one after the other, you're getting freaking smoked, man. You're getting overheated. You need somebody that's gonna be heads up enough to be like, all right, dude, let's we need to get out of here, cool off, hydrate. There's multiple reasons. But so that helped in some ways, but now you have one less person doing physical labor because the engineers out there at the truck. Sometimes they come in with you depending on if you're the first or second unit. You know, those those initial units, they're busy pumping on fires, they're pumping, you're pumping, they're at the pump panel, like opening lines and you know, fet doing all the pressures. And um, so yeah, a lot of different things could happen.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

All right. So when you when you move from probationary to firefighter, is there like a ceremony? Is it just like you're part of the team or maybe you're part of the team. Slap on the ass and say out a boy, like what's what's the deal?

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Yeah, it's usually it's usually not a big deal, big deal. Um, because there's like anything, there's plenty of hazing, and there's good hazing, and then there's the bad, you know, the bad stuff. So depending on if they liked you, we went through a strange period where it ended up being really, really toxic. Like I remember the old school, I knew some of the older generation firefighters. It was very much more family-oriented and more of a brotherhood. Something happened and it got really, really toxic. And um, they were still some of the true heroes, some of the best people I've ever known. Even the the dickheads would um were very competent. Even really crappy, mean people were very generally really competent. Sometimes, you know, uh meaner. Because I don't know why, but you could as long as you're a competent, you could almost do anything. So that was interesting, you know, it's an interesting part of the culture, but we had a lot of phenomenal people.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Yeah, working working in the same city, we always like envy that you guys could pretty much get away with murder before anything would happen where we could just say something wrong and get fucked up.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Oh, you guys a hundred percent, because you're getting it from every angle. You're getting it from admin and and sometimes co-workers and then the the public, like it's way harder of a child. I always had way more respect for you guys. Much more difficult. Took a certain mindset. I wouldn't have had the the thick enough skin to be able to handle not being like because when you're a firefighter, people are constantly coming up to you here's my baby. Handy your hand the kid to you, you're crawling over you in the truck with the little plastic red hats, or hey, thanks for your service. You know, it's it's really cut, it's not that's what we needed.

SPEAKER_05 19:57

We need a cop hat maybe the life is better.

SPEAKER_02 20:00

Here we go. Yeah, so perfect. So people were very friendly, and sometimes that could absolutely go to your head if you're not careful. You know, humility's a like you're gonna get humbled one way or another. But um, but yeah, it was um what was I'm sorry, what was the question again?

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Uh just talking about like the transitioning from proby to firefighter, like if there's some kind of ceremony. It's like for us, I mean, you get off of FTO and then you go solo in a car, right? So that's your initial ceremony, right? It's it's your internal one, right? Sure. So you're like fuck, I'm finally in a car by myself.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Yeah, and ours is.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Where for you, you guys are fucking stuck with it, you know, each other.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Yeah, so ours was you know the same with generally I I didn't I wasn't aware of any, hey, you've you've arrived, you're off probation. There was maybe a little bit of relief, you know, because you're like, okay, uh, I get a much higher chance to keep my job, past probation, all that. Um, you know, a lot of the times, like if you had a good group, whether you had a good crew or or around good people or not, a lot of times if it's your first, you'd always buy you're always buying ice cream for different things, you know. You're first at this, you're first at that. And so they're we're trying to fat us up pretty quick.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

And uh you guys had some fat motherfuckers, dude.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

Dude, 100%. What's the deal? No, it's all it's all over.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Yeah, I mean it's everywhere, but you'll you'll see like the one guy pop out of the truck, and you're just like, oh.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

What's up?

SPEAKER_01 21:30

But it's the same thing with a cop. You'll see oh yeah, you'll see some fat fucker, and you're just like, how the how did you get to that point?

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Yeah. And I remember thinking that uh when I because I was in really good shape when I got started, and I remember thinking, like, what the what happened to you? Freaking tubby. And uh and and the guys are just freaking boo, burn out. Just it depends on the so I I watched that happen over the years, and then eventually it happened to me, you know, after I was off the department. But a lot of the times, just people, some people it depends on how disciplined you are. inherently can you continue to do that all throughout your age you know throughout your different age ages and stages and career um but but also sometimes that comes from a lot of cortisol and that crappy crappy food cortisol sleep deprivation sleep deprivation adrenaline and and so it definitely affects your your weight and your metabolism and I look you know I slowly but surely started to get fatter as as well you know well maybe also like the stress of everything right you're drinking and alcohol is a really big factor in weight gain for sure and that was my deal because I was alcoholic looking back I had alcoholic tendencies and drinking behaviors back in high school so I was definitely one before I got on and then man when it's things got rough it didn't matter hooray had a good time to celebrate shitty time either way I'm like you know just throwing them back mean a lot of people and which was interesting like sometimes you get in trouble for you know coming in stinking the booths you know but then other it was some ways it was accepted just depending on who and it was a really weird thing like so I got hazed or had the hardest time by some of the people that were literally alcoholics and drug you know addicts themselves which was I thought was really weird. You know like some kind of weird what kind of weird hypocrisy is that right whatever just part of the culture.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Yeah it's a whole different topic right right I mean they're taking out their their anger their disappointment their guilt on you sure um and that's how they get rid of it.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

And there is a lot of that and you know there's there's there's a reason why we have so many broken homes divorces and a lot of it's chronic stress, PTS addiction all that it all runs hand in hand. So you know some people probably were always toxic and bullyish but that definitely gets worse the more sick you get. That's true. Yeah I didn't my anger and rage didn't develop till late it started to develop when I was on the department and it just got worse and worse because it it just accumulates. So my fight didn't kick in till later on in life and that's what it just man it really gets going and you get really angry. Just freaking scrapping and you know and just telling just finally telling people like hey get fuck you. You know get away from me. You know you gotta not gotta bully me. Or I don't care what you think or what you like. So it was a really strange process and you know we'll we can start from the beginning and work our way back up to all that but it's it's a fascinating I just think you back remembering it's fascinating of my progression and evolution. It's way more clear now as to why what happened and why but I at the time I was just completely running out of instinct.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

You know when you when you're stuck in it you don't pay attention to it you you're just you're questioning it because you're like I don't know what how I'm I'm in the spot. Right yeah versus stepping out of and saying that's why I'm in the spot.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Totally yeah so I didn't know how to do that. I mean the only time I stepped out was when I was I had so much trauma I'd like disassociate. But then you're numb you're not I didn't I my brain that part of my prefrontal cortex was not understanding any of that or how to figure it out I didn't learn that till years later.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Alright so yeah so how were your first few years on the department thing? They were good after after probation.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

It was good I you know of course I had those you would have those run-ins with those people in those crews that were just bullyish and toxic but then also some of them were awesome and you felt immediately you felt at home and felt like part of the gang, you know Brotherhood. So it was really really great. And uh I remember thinking because I met my second wife the first year and uh so those two things combined were like I felt like holy crap I hit the jackpot you know thanks God like those are two of my the best things that ever happened to me. I felt like I'd arrived worked my way out of poverty met a good a really solid woman like everything was just rocking man I was so happy I was just beside myself you know I didn't know how to sustain it. But any any major calls that you can remember of your first couple years that were just like that stood out I can't because there's so many you know and and I had like I said I had I saw some gnarly stuff in the ER and I saw gnarly stuff on the on the ambulance and nothing really pops out there's just and then you when you're dealing with thousands and thousands of calls including really terrible ones I I'm what's interesting another thing about chronic stress or PTS or complex PTS it affects your memory. And so I there's a lot that I don't remember. And I think that's our brain trying to protect our you know protect us. Sure. So there's a lot about childhood I don't remember I can certainly remember the bad and the good things and like as you guys know one of the one of the things about our brain everything that's bad you're gonna remember it. It's how we how it protects us. So if you have a bad experience you're m we're way more likely to to remember that especially when it comes to other people as well so people typically remember the bad stuff about you instead of the good stuff. And we all do the same thing. Yeah that's all part of our neurology but I I can't think I mean I had plenty of deaths and serious stuff the the first time I mean the first within the first couple years but it's really hard to reach back. I I left in 2013 that was would have been oh two oh two or oh three so yeah it was we were getting real calls right out right off the rip um one of my good buddies uh who I stayed in touch with uh he was the second guy to get a PTS retirement with the fire department uh Johnny Wilken and uh he um he had some of his lifelong major PTS type calls immediately his first week I don't remember what it was it was something gnarly it is usually to do with kids yeah that bugs us all so we've all seen a ton of dead kids it's just terrible yeah I don't miss that that's there's you know I see the fire trucks ripped by our office Patrick and you know all around the city that we we work in and and if there's times where I'm like oh yeah or I miss that or but then I think of those things and I'm like oh god no yesterday went on a call with uh one of our coworkers and and um a community service call and and this gentleman his legs were rotten from the knee down it was disgusting and I'm like I'm just I got a mask on and it brought me all back to all those gnarly calls and my for some reason my stomach just got weaker and weaker as I got older and and uh and just seeing that and the smell of it I was like I do not miss this whatsoever you know so yeah that's it's always the smells that got me but uh yeah anything to do with kids is horrible yeah yeah yeah I think your your limit of acceptance changes you know the more and more you're exposed to these calls because like the first few times you're like I can fuck an analyst totally and then you're like I don't want to do this anymore.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Yeah you know so you're like nah I'm good so yeah yeah um all right so where do where do you go from here now?

SPEAKER_02 28:53

Yeah real quick to address that before like you're talking about it's really interesting that like you everybody's got a morbid curiosity a s a level or sense of that or an aspect of that but you you and then you can get to a place where you're just you're like nothing bothers you you're numb like oh man whatever it's just you know you can literally joke with the people as soon as you get back into your units or nobody's around you're all talking crap and uh but then you definitely get to a point where you're just full saturation where like I don't I did I didn't want to go to cadaver labs anymore as a paramedic. I'm like seeing so many dead people I'm like nah and I definitely don't want to cut on one you know it's just grosses me out all of it. I don't I'm all my family and friends all hunt. I don't hunt because I've just seen just so much. I don't know if that makes any sense but yeah I'm just not interested in going out there blasting if I'm not gonna eat it I'm not gonna kill it number one. You know I'm just I'm not that into it for sport and I'm definitely not gonna don't I don't want to get it I've seen plenty of guts meat you know all over only people meat and that's gross. Yeah hopefully you're not eating that is there's something you want to something you want to tell Steven well people taste good thanks Dahmer Stephen Dahmer no I just didn't want to hunt and I uh yeah still it's maybe one day we'll see but yeah it's just not my jam just something about that soured me.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

No I mean it makes sense so you you see enough carnage you like why expose yourself to it yeah it's a yeah it's something about the carnage and then the life because the visual the smell is gonna bring back stuff that you can't remember or don't want to remember so you're like no smells are very triggering for me.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

So it's an interesting thing but I'm not anti-hunting I'm all about it. Like so eat meat let's get it you know but yeah no so so after that um gosh it all just kind of blurred together uh had good and bad experiences uh about oh five I went to paramedic school with a bunch of my buddies my academy buddies there's like probably six of us a lot of us guys are captains and chiefs now or since retired but uh it was fun had a really good group um one of our instructors was also captain uh paramedic uh respiratory therapist so he was really thorough we had one of the best paramedic schools in America so they really put us through it excuse me and it was uh it was a tough class but it was a good one and and then by the way like a lot of things and depending on your brain it you know how quick you learn whatever any level that was like I was telling you about every level that you go through that that's just the basics like you really learn the job and learn about it once you get started. So it took me some time to get comfortable you know with just trying to figure it all out how to be a halfway decent medic. Uh I worked with a well just a lot of super talented people great people that really knew their craft as firefighters everything about it and then the medicine as well then some people are great at all of it.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

With with going through medic school is there like what's the attrition rate on there?

SPEAKER_02 31:59

I mean is it we only pretty intense it's pretty intense but there I mean we lost a couple of people we had we also had people from Peoria fire and uh just like the academies you can have people you get into your courses and classes. So we lost uh I think a couple of them but you know we study like crazy and they'll help you. But it's tough they don't mess around. I mean I don't know what it's like now but they they didn't pull any punches if you couldn't do it you couldn't do it. Well I mean you it's it was a big matter of life and death so well 100% yeah yeah and that's part of it you have to know what you're doing and um so there was a big it was a big deal if you flunked out of school medic school so or flunk anything you know how it is it's probably the same in the military or PD in law enforcement so they expect you to to figure it out and be good at it. And uh so having gone through all that I actually had took me a little bit longer I I had several ACL repairs. I blow out blow out blown out ACLs and we would go do frisbee football. All the guys love that for whatever reason you know we did other types of training exercise as well but I blew out an ACL when I was in medical school and uh so I ended up having to it took me longer first of all I had to go through that surgery and it took me the I had to go right on one of the units at our downtown station one so it just took me longer and more training to get my my patch but I finally got it. And then once everything settles down you know you start figuring out and learning it the one of the things that I what I noticed about myself in retrospect was like AED is that's a real thing. That's a no shit thing. And then with PTS as well a lot of them absolutely affect your prefrontal cortex all your executive function. So on top of being revved up you know if you're if you're coming into the job with a lot of trauma in fight or flight like there was so much pressure to to be good at your job people would get other people spun up so I've caught myself looking back and I'd get spun up when it was when I when I thought about it I'm like yeah you want to be good but like don't you only want people to be so stressed out so they can learn and get it but once they're too stressed out it's all gone man you've got to wipe it all and that's what happened to me a lot. So it took me more time to figure it out. So I was just more stressed out about doing the job right versus somebody freaking dying right in front of me or doing that well. So it's it that's part of the you know the phenomenon so people can spin you know we call them soup sandwiches or there's a million terms for that but I did get to the point where it's like no big deal you know I could do it my sleep like everything else like literally we'd top up and like zombie do the truck and zombie do the call back and you could do it in your sleep. So yeah there's a point everybody figures it out at some point you can you learn your trade or your job. Alright yeah so where did things kind of start changing then well I didn't know it at the time even when I started you know because I still had the that the alcoholic type drinking I was raging out there partying I was kicking it with a bunch of firefighters and a few law enforcement like we we'd have law enforcement guys there too. I never really got to know them or their names but you know we're at the strip clubs and we're at the bars and we're out there play hard you know work hard play hard kind of stuff and I knew some of these guys before I ever got hired and a lot of guys were jacked on here on the gear and just we worked hard but we had a different type of thinking like you know weren't afraid to to do that other stuff that those gray areas and um what was the question I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Where did things start changing for you?

SPEAKER_02 35:30

Where did they change? So I I I I remember you know already having have that those bad habits the drinking habits because I was I didn't understand at the time that I had PTS I didn't figure this out till years later complex PTS so I could I don't know how to describe it but it's I'm always ever since I remember I had anxiety and depression and anger I just it was just I didn't understand what it was or what was driving my behavior. So I started obviously started drinking more you know good at good you know bad times or good times and me and a lot of people that I knew a lot of different people in the fire department a lot of us some sometimes we'd hang out together on our days off like like you guys did party together worked out together all that and at some point I guess it would have been around year maybe five or something I I it wasn't just me that started to slowly change and degrade but some of my friends guys that I worked with that I was very close with like some of the guys that uh one guy in particular guy named Tim Raw we went to school together in in uh over at Goldwater in North Phoenix and um didn't really know him back then but it got to know him we got really close on the department we had each other's weddings worked out together worked together on the same unit worked out together you know off the job and on the job and got you know you get close to everybody and I saw both of us started kind of degrading at the same time he also had a lot of childhood trauma and um a couple failed promotional tests which is just a lot of pressure we we all want to be good at our jobs no one is nobody wants to be perceived as weak stupid or lame or whatever so that over time like I we were training together and I was training so hard with guys that are way bigger and stronger I started to have an injuries and started breaking down. So I started eventually I quit lifting which was a really big deal because that's that's so important it helps regulate your sleep your emotions everything else and so when that happened and he did the same thing and other guys that I knew we just kind of slowly started degrading physically mentally and that's when you that's when the depression anxiety that kind of stuff really kicks in the the bad sleep habits the the uh the addictions and the substance really starts taking over now you're you're not irregulating through your workouts and whatever else it's just straight up booze drugs sex fighting whatever you know whatever's anything on the hedonic scale pain pleasure so I watched from a distance and then we all started kind of growing apart and kind of from a distance I saw everybody degrading. I we're all and you isolate more the more you go through this stuff the more you isolate. So that's what I did and a lot of other people that buddy I was telling you about ended up dying I didn't know it at the time but um he was um huffy like everybody has their favorite drug alcohol whatever however they're they're coping and he went through like terrible terrible stuff his you know his dad was an alcoholic and had a rough childhood as well some of us a lot of us I found out later on a lot of us come up from hard places and space and we all a lot of us have our own traumas whether you come from a middle class family up or or completely lower like I did in poverty and violence so he has quite a bit of that in himself and um his stepmom had just died of an aggressive cancer. His mom committed suicide and then and then eventually yeah just terrible things were you know happening to him while he was going through all this and he ended up uh dying you know of that that's a cellular asphyxiator yeah so by the time they it was too late by the time they figured out what had happened you know he goes into the ER blue you know as he was it's a cellular asphyxian so he's purple blue he's not oxidating and they ended up um I think we call it RSI rapid sequence innovations they had to put him down in the ER because he was he couldn't breathe calm him down breathe for him and they never got him back he coded never got him back and that that was one of the big uh heartbreaks for me because I I always with all the people I've known that have died friends and family suicides I always have this uh survivor guilt kind of thing going on like God I wish I could have got to him I was drowning myself there's no way but then you have this weird thing of like maybe I could have saved them or somehow or something it's just a weird thing that we go through or do and uh so that was a big hit for me and while I was going through that like I remember um I was struggling with substance abuse you know missing work all you know just things are starting to unravel and um so I'm starting to catch heat for that right we had a really good chaplain I never got to know him we had a really bad one after that that's the one I got to know so I didn't get a whole lot of help from that chaplain and now I'm having to do like I we had a guy that retired 30 some odd years a great captain had a big blowout um retirement party for him at one of the bars and I ended up calling out the next day and got written up for that okay one of my the captain that I was working with new captain he was dealing with one of my old buddies who had a coke problem so he's like new captain I'm gonna you know I'm gonna do this appropriately and then I don't want to see him he's trying I think he was trying to help I want to see him get in treatment unlike we had a mutual friend that had a uh uh like a lot of serious issues with substances so I was on pro um not probation but I was uh on uh was doing intensive outpatient IOP for that well the problem with that is people started gosping and whispering so at the time the one of the captains who's now a chief over there was gosping my my friends are calling me they managed to talk about you be careful they uh if you're your your bros your your friends you know male or female they'll give you a heads up on what's going on sure who's saying what yeah so that was that really bothered me and then and then my buddy died I was telling you about and then uh and then after that uh right after right after the funeral I get pulled in to go see this counselor and he's like hey that same one that was talking crap gossiping you she's saying you have to do counseling you know and that kind of stuff like you could not trust anybody same thing with my buddy that died and several other people that because the culture is so rough uh any hint of weakness addiction PTS like people never talked about PTS you know that's just for combat veterans etc so I Well that's the culture you you eat your we eat our own yeah right for sure yeah if you show any sign of weakness like you're eating alive you're cooked yeah they won't eat yeah blood in the water so so that really you know affected me and bothered me at that point I couldn't trust anybody I tried EAP EAP is just for the average person with the average problem right not at applicable to us at all whatsoever anybody with serious childhood trauma or the kind of traumas that we face and deal with so I tried that tried IOP uh after my buddy died I freaking got drunk and lost you know lost it and was really upset with the people that one of his buddies was a a captain from another department that he was living with he knew about it I was really mad at that dude like dude you should have told me you know come on dude you helped you helped kill him that's not the truth but at the time that's what I was thinking of feeling I was gonna whip this side's ass so I got a call from the chief and ushered right into rehab into impatient rehab the next day the reason that is is because my buddy who passed away they didn't put him into rehab right away and he kept doing it and he and he killed him. So that's when the rule changed now you got a problem you go right to rehab if you don't you're you're off the job you're done you're terminated so and that's unfortunately that's how a lot of those things happen with our departments they're more proactive in certain ways than than reactive a lot of rules have been made because people have died. Sure so I get it whatever so um so I go into rehab that's inpatient rehab over at Scastel same thing um like I really am a big believer in if we're gonna do rehabs and counseling for first responders and veterans it would really help if they knew our jobs knew what we were going through especially for officers like you guys you don't want to be in Some freaking in a group with a bunch of people like people you might have arrested or sent to jail or prison. Right. You know, that's a big that's a real thing. How are you gonna be vulnerable? Right. So it's even similar in in ways for people in the fire service because they just don't get it. They don't understand why you're you screwed up and why you're traumatized and what's happening. So that didn't work. And back then, in in to some ways, an extent to date, things have gotten better, but a lot of the traumas and rehabs do not focus on traumas. I mean, the I mean rehabs and the and the counseling or what have you. They didn't need to focus more on the initial issues and the traumas. That wasn't happening. It was just straight up, here's your 12 steps. And by the way, 12-step programs I think work really good because that's part of the healing process. Those are part of the steps to clean that stuff out. Excuse me, to clean that stuff out, to get to the root of the issue and to make the appropriate changes. I think it really worked, it has worked for millions of people, but I hadn't, it just didn't work for me. I didn't, I was, and at the same time, another part of that is I was so busy trying to stay out of the hot seat, keep my job, keep my marriage. You know, I'm just like, yeah, I'm fucking, I'm good. Well, I'm good, I'm fine.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

So do you think the department just did that to check the box?

SPEAKER_02 45:14

Sure. Absolutely. You know, I mean discipline's supposed to be correct. Some people really try, I think, tried to help, they just didn't know any, they didn't know how, what was wrong, or how to help.

SPEAKER_04 45:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

So they see somebody burning down, burning their life down. At some point with me, I think they're just like, you know, fucking, you're not even trying. You don't, you know, we've tried to help you, this, that, the other. All right, I'm fucking, you're dead to me. And that totally happened with quite a few people. And man, I didn't know, like I said, I didn't know what was going on or how, how to fix it. Nothing was nothing I tried was working. Church, you know, there's your true spirituality and relationship with God, and then there's just church. That's like for a lot of people, it's like these lame rehabs, they just go through the motions and there's it's nothing's really happening. So it took um, yeah, it took a lot of trial and error and many more bad things to happen before I started putting it together. But yeah, it was um it was a rough time.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

All right. Do you want to talk about what happened on duty?

SPEAKER_02 46:17

Yeah, yeah. So I so along with so I had mentioned before, I don't know if I I don't know if I mentioned or not, I was supposed to go into the Marines when I was younger. This is before I even got out of the department. I was literally already went to maps, it was ready to go in. My kid brother was going in, and then one of our buddies I went recon, and we're all supposed to go in together. Well, I let some freaking gunny talk me into an extra stripe, a little extra pay, and I and I went, I was supposed to go in the delete entry program for that's a six-year hitch instead of four to get an extra promotional stripe and a little bit of money. I'm like, okay. And uh, so I didn't go in with my bro and my buddy, which I really wish I would have. So now I'm goofing off with this this old same old firefighter buddy. This is way before we get hired, and I've had multiple uh there's a little little connections that I had with this particular person. A lot of substance abuse, a lot of things that happened. And looking back, I'm like, God, I wish I would have maybe made better choices with who I hung out with. But so I'm hanging out with this bro, and uh this four week, you know, before I got out of the department, and uh, you know, all he could care less about the military, but I was all about it at the time. Yeah. And I'm like, I'll do fire later. And so we're just goofing off and freaking. I think we literally had a test for Tempi fire the next day, and we're just dumbass kids, like 19, 20, throwing them back, like woo, we're gonna be firemen. We're gonna test. Yeah, great way to prepare. You know, we're out throwing them back. And we ended up jumping, like we're in these um this typical, you know, little bit of booze fueled up, testosterone, young guy kind of stupid, stupid, you know, stupid liquid courage. Liquid courage, yeah, just dumb stuff. And um we're literally at like six stories up at these apartments that he lived in in uh Tempe and jumping into trees and just doing stupid shit. It's what you guys do.

SPEAKER_05 48:04

I've got an almost 18-year-old son, so like I'm like, oh no.

SPEAKER_02 48:09

People wonder, like you all you you you look at little boys play typically versus little girls, they're rowdy and physical and doing that kind of stuff. Totally. There's a reason for it. Some of it's cultural, some of it's you know, hormones. But I so we're we ended up doing that five, you know, six, five, you know, fifth story, and I I'm like, alright, I'm gonna check this tree out. I don't know, go down to the fourth story, and bang, you know, jump into it. And as soon as I hit it, man, it comes apart. You know, tumbled four and a half stories, you know, blew up my back. That was my first initial ACL uh, you know, blew that one up. So that was my first after that I had my first ACL surgery. Blew up a couple fractures of vertebrae in my low back and blew up a couple disc. Worked through that. So over the years, I end up having more and more having more of these knee surgeries, two ACL repairs per knee, and that back just kept, you know, have being a problem. I would slip disc and you know, constantly on and off the job. So eventually he put me on medications. Every surgery you get a certain amount of pain medication, you know, and then so on. And then I'm trying um epidurals and back injections, anything I can, anything and everything.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Burning up sick type and pain meds were oh, they threw them out.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

Yeah, like skills candy. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

Where you should be getting like a 30-day supply, they're giving you like a four-month supply.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

Totally, way more than they should have. So I went through all that. First time I just like alcohol and anything else, first time I tried opiate. So it's just like, holy crap. That's I want to feel this way forever. This is awesome. Yeah, I didn't have I didn't have the pre-frontal cortex online that was like, wait a minute, you could get addicted, you might lose everything. No, not at all.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

No, you had your your surgery, pain meds.

SPEAKER_02 49:49

Yeah. I already knew immediately. Like I like that. I like this stuff. And um, and I uh as like a young teenager, I messed around with the you know, illicit drugs, tried that. But I like and never I was never really addicted, just kind of played around with played around with it like most people in the 80s. And um, but that was a whole another level at that point in my life. My nervous system had really evolved where I'm like, oh my god, this feels great. Anything to turn the noise down in my head or not to feel uh you know, anger, depression, anxiety, all that. So yeah, so I started having more and more pain medication, start uh eventually I go to a pain doctor in Scotsto. You know, jackpot. Oh, before that, right before medical school, uh they diagnosed me with ADD, so they put my adderall. So I got all the legal dope I want, you know. Then the doc and this pain doctor throws me an oxycot. And uh I'm getting like 180 of the 30s, you know, uh every month, and then another 120 of fives for breakthrough pain, big you know, breakthrough pain. So it's an ungodly amount of and that wasn't even like the pill mills and places they've they've done it around the country, and uh which they gave far more, but that was enough to get me super addicted. So, like a lot of people within two, three years, you know, I'm now freaking and that same buddy that I was with the fire department that um he, you know, that we were doing the balcony thing, you know. That's uh one of the one of the people that I hung with my for most of my life, and you know, where we party together doing drugs together. Well, this guy ends up getting hooked on it as well. Now he's now he's selling my stuff and we're buying heroin.

SPEAKER_05 51:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 51:40

You know, and which is very typical.

SPEAKER_05 51:42

And you you think all while on the job, right? Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_02 51:45

Yeah. Because there's always a subculture of people that have no, you know, that'll do drugs that have no problem with any of that. Especially if you're like shooting steroids, like, what's what's another needle? Who cares? You know, and it's just it's just weird how things could affect you and change you. Like when you're younger, you're like, no, hey, I'd never do any of that. You know, I remember being terrified of like I grew up with dare and all the same crap, like heroin, god no, PCP, you know, that's those are those stuff my nightmares are made of. But what's if you're slowly addicted, that changes everything. You know, it's like boiling a frog. So uh at some point we're both horrifically addicted. He's by now he's working for a different department. And um, and I probably within half a dozen times of trying heroin, and I think what had happened to me was that's when fit and all started getting into it. Because it was different than what I was the heroin that I tried before was like brown, they call it brown, soft, putty like a putty. Yep. And but this stuff was hard, brown, and like glossy. So I I'm sure there was some fitnol in it. And I just didn't know about any of that, which is and that's another thing, having grown up anti-drug, being a firefighter paramedic, like hell no. But I mean, you once you're so far gone, you don't care. And I've had good friends that were in the law enforcement or the uh the military, including the teams, like special operations, like you'd be surprised how extreme you could be with a lot of different things. So uh yeah, so it was within maybe six times. I remember trying it at his my buddy's house, and then it uh a couple different times there. I so basically we went to his station one day because you have all that stuff at the station. You have the the sterile water and the the you know, insulin needles, all that crap. We're at his station. I I uh picked up from his dealer, went to his station, we shot up, like as usual, like everything's fine now. You know, because you when you're you're seriously, it's no joke. Like you when you you'll do whatever you have to to keep from getting dope sick. It's the worst flu, the worst any can't anything, it's hard to describe how horrible it is.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

Body aches, all kinds of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 53:56

Oh yeah, man, you're you're barfing, you got the shit, it's like you you've you're coming out of your skin, you're hot, cold. It's just one of the most uncomfortable things I've ever experienced. Sure. It's terrible. And I and I used to have the thinking of like, well, it's your fault, dumbass. Like, you know, I didn't have any p any pity for anybody that was dope sick or whatever. Like, who cares? It's interesting how life how that happens until you go through it yourself or or you know somebody that's gone through something you know very close to you. Now it affects you. Now it's relevant, now it's you know important or whatever. So I was the same way before that. I'm like, freaking dophines. I thought I'd arrived after I'd gotten on the department. I'm like, I'm past all that. Um, you know, I've never was fully addicted. I became addicted when I was on after I was on. But I remember having this in this arrogant thinking of like, why don't you people pull your shit together? Like look at me. I pulled it together.

SPEAKER_01 54:48

The the area that you worked at, station one, station four, there was so much dope down there. A lot of dope because that was that's where I worked, and it was insane. Oh, yeah, we ran on a ton of calls. There was so much.

SPEAKER_02 55:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 55:02

I mean oh people ODing like left or right.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

Yes, we ran on a lot of those types of calls. And like a lot of calls, not all those people didn't make it. You know, we don't you we don't save everybody. I don't know if anybody knows this, but we don't save everybody. We lose a lot, a lot of people, maybe more than we we save, I don't know. But so that but the power of trauma and addiction, you're not seeing that, man. It's like having blinders on. Yeah, um you're just a bli you can become oblivious and so numb. You will burn your whole life down, and none of it matters. Like something is just completely numb in there. So yeah, so so uh shooting dope at my buddy's station the day before. Next day I'm on shift. Same thing, only I overdose, which is a huge thing in Mesa. It was probably about gosh, what time was it? I don't remember if it was 1.30 or close to three, but we get a call. I didn't get up for the call. And my junior firefighter, who's now probably a captain or chief, he was like, I better go check on him, because I, you know, this is not, you know, while all this is happening, little by little I'm getting in more and more trouble, disciplinary stuff. So he's like, I better go check on him. So you know, he's already, you know, in the it's already in kind of in trouble. I don't want to, you know, which I thought was very cool and thoughtful. It was awesome. You know, props to Corey, Nichols. And and I didn't get up, but he comes in there and I'm purple. I'm not breathing. Changes everything. So now I get ripped off the bed, they divert the call, it's somebody else, the whole station gets up, and uh working me right there in the hall. I think I've coded, you know, they didn't know anything about they figured it out. But they thought maybe I had a heart attack or something like that. I mean, overdose, you're gonna have a heart attack. Everybody has a heart attack when they're dying on an overdose, your heart eventually stops. But that's not their initial No, it's you're it's because of your not breathing.

SPEAKER_01 56:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 56:55

Yeah, so for that particular drug. So, yeah, so I'm purple, not breathing, and uh they worked me up in the hall there, load me into a uh uh rescue or an ambulance. Uh back then we we had uh separate companies, independent companies that were doing all the ambulance work. Now all the cities run their own and most of them run their own ambulances or rescues, they call them. So I uh I what I I don't remember any of this. I had a I had a great day. You know, oddly enough, you get a great pump when you're on opiates. You have no pain. So I'm jet, I'm working out, I'm all jacked. Man, but it's just a good day. I'm I cooked that day, went on the favorite meals. You know, my wife was Italian, so she taught me how to cook. And she's having a great day, you know. Why wouldn't you? You're on heroin, you know, insane when you think about it, you know, as a first responder. I'm not driving the truck, but you know, it doesn't matter. But everything's going fine in my broken world. And then I wake up in the ambulance with my buddy, one of my academy mates, who was acting captain, he was in the promotional process. My regular captain is across the bay with the chief, and and he hits me with an arcan, and I come up, I come awake, and I'm like, I remember being all foggy headed and like, oh shit. And I he I can remember him looking at me like he knew, it's just like I knew, like what an arcan does. And I was like, fuck, man, I'm cook. And we went right into the ER. And he I just saw his whole demeanor change, and he knows it's I'm done. And sure enough, I was. So I go to the ER. Uh the um what are they called? The the public speaking, what's the officers called it for the PIL. The PIO comes up and uh we're just chopping it up and and they responded to the hospital to talk to you? Oh yeah, it was a big deal. Because that you know this is the kind of stuff they want to sweep under the rug. You don't want the cops with firefighters overdosing them heroin and on duty. Like a lot of that stuff goes largely unknown. And yeah, so PIO's there, you know, so they they gotta they gotta cover themselves and you know, they got a public image and all that. And this is what I find fascinating because it's like, how could you I'm not trying, you know, I have to be accountable. I have been held accountable for all the mistakes I've made. I I understand why I did them in retrospect or hindsight, but this is what's I really struggle with is like if you if your people are melting down, how can you expect them not to do these things when you they see the things they see? That's all real shit, man. These are moral injuries and serious traumas and toxic culture and horrible calls. Not saying we get a free pass to do whatever we want, but you can understand how it happens. So, but anyways, yeah, it's just it's the way of the world. And um, so yeah, I went uh the immediately I went, this chaplain put me in a freaking Phoenix, I think it was Phoenix St. Luke's, eight days on a cycle, you know, where they for like suicidal people. I don't know if they thought I was I don't know, but that was that was not fun. You know, I'm in there with a bunch of hallucinating schizophrenics, and uh I'm just like you know, and now I'm tripping, you know, because I'm like, oh god, career. Oh, by the way, my wife had moved out like three or four months before that, you know. So I'm just circling the drain.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:10

Plus you're detoxing now, too.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:12

Yeah, totally, all that. And so I end up at a rehab over in Chandler after that eight days, and then they fired me in rehab. They they were trying to serve me, and then the it what's typical in rehabs, they won't let people serve anybody or whatever. And then one of our own uni guys brought in who I thought was gonna come help, brought me in my termination papers. Yeah, that's fucked up, man. It's totally fucked up. So at the same time, I have to own my own crap and I have to be accountable. And it took me years to to do that because I was just so bitter. You know, it took me years to go. And I had a chief that was just really had it out for me, my battalion chief. He'd been building a big stack. I gave him everything he needed, but that was that was the the cherry on top that he wanted and needed. So I was cooked. And then I realized years later, like, probably would have been cooked anywhere, like any even with Phoenix, who was you know, a much bigger, more liberal department, Mesa much more conservative, high Mormon population. Um, that's just part of it. It's just more of a conservative uh culture in general. But they uh, you know, probably wouldn't have been cooked regardless. But so whatever, man. Put you know, regardless after everything that's happened, I've learned the hard way very painfully. Staying the victim doesn't help you, staying angry and hurt and bitter. Nobody else gives a shit. They've moved, they're not even thinking about you, and you're just still years later, just ruminating and going bananas. And it's horrific because I literally, I mean, I had some other things that had happened, like COVID, and I'll tell you more about the story. Very high stress situations. Lost my hair, like just got fatter, like high, high cortisol. So this unforgiveness and being stuck in the victim mode just keeps your cortisol rocking, and you're always hurt and angry and freaked out, and did not help at all. It took me a lot of work. I couldn't find the treatments that would I've later found out what would help me, but it took me all trial and error. I lost everything, wealth, retirement, everything gone. And so now I'm on freaking welfare. Now I'm on access Medicaid, and you don't always they're great in some ways that you get awesome treatment in some ways, but not the therapy. I got the typical what the guys are getting at the VA, the the men and women with the veterans. A whole bunch of shitload of worthless toxic freaking psych meds. It probably helps some, but generally it didn't help, and then just worthless therapies.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:41

Not like getting to the root of the problem. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:43

Once again, just surface level. Yeah, surface level stuff. Yep. Not working. So I tried, and then and then beeping, I don't know why. Just we all have different nervous systems and minds, and and uh a lot of the stuff didn't work for me. So I tried EMDR. EMDR, um, I did uh accelerated resolution therapy art, which is similar to EMDR, eye movement stuff, and all the talk therapies, just tried everything, the stellate ganglion, you know, shots where they go in with the with the local and a steroid into the ganglion nerves and through the front of the neck, and you know, try to calm that down. That helped a little bit. Um, I used to have a very exaggerated startle response, so that helped with that. Kind of just something to slow a buffer, and uh, but I was my nervous system was still on fire. So um I tried almost everything, and I it wasn't until things kept getting worse and worse because it got worse after all that. Um eventually I found things that worked, and I've been trying to heal ever since. You know, but I you know it's a it's a long journey, it's maybe a lifelong journey.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:50

Yeah. No, I think I think knowing you now, um, and I don't know if you I don't know if I ever told you this, but I was actually working the day U OD'd. No kidding. So I was at a station, I was at the main station, uh heard the call come in. What the fuck are these fire guys doing? What are these firefighters? You know, we that's not what you expect to hear. Yeah because you hear the call, but you're thinking somebody firefighters. Yeah, somebody rolled up to the station, yeah. And and was like trying to get help and they OD'd and the typical.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:27

You think it was one of the guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:28

Yeah, so then we roll up and we're like, These dudes get rolled out, like, what's what the fuck's going on? So definitely different, right? But knowing knowing where you've come now and what you're doing for people, like you've you've done a complete full fucking circle, dude. Thank you. And you should be proud of that because um, like now Steve's the peer recovery specialist for the city of Tempe. So he's now going to like veterans court and city court trying to deal with these folks that are dealing with drug issues and trying to get them some help, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:07

And it's one of those things like if somebody would have stepped in with you ahead of time, that probably would have changed your whole trajectory, too.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:14

Even the captain you mentioned that had that stack of things again, or a battalion chief, yeah, stack of things, at some point, if he had handled, dealt with you differently when he first noticed an issue, it may have prevented all those other issues.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:27

Very much so. And and this is another thing I've had to be honest with myself about and part of that accountability. They tried to in their own way, they just didn't understand it. Like they they knew I was an oxycoton. One of my we we have health assessments. One of the doctors, like, you gotta get off that. You can't do that and be on shift. And in my mind, I'm like, your fucking mom can't do that. You know, I'm like, I'm staying on this shit. Yeah, and um, and but they somehow that got overridden, and and he was correct. And that you know, they tried to get me the help, but they just didn't none of them had ever been through it.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:57

What year about is that?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

That would have been that was 2013 when it overduced. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:03

That was fairly new, right? PTS was barely starting to be acknowledged in agency.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:08

Yeah, we hadn't even not in the first responder world. It was only a military thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:12

Well, even like for Gilbert, that was probably the first year we had anybody leave because that major mass homicide was 2012. And so up until that point, I don't even think it people were leaving because of it, but the rest of us had no clue what was happening. We were still all like, oh, totally, there's something else is wrong with them. It isn't this because none of us are affected.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:33

Exactly. So none of us understood it. And I have to cut cut them some slack as well. So I don't want to be, you know, hate my department or hate these people because they they're victims of it as well. I have friends that died of overdose and suicide. Another, you know, so I wasn't the only one that got went through it. Quite a few guys that I knew died from generally stress or drug related, obviously some cancer. But so yeah, so they they some of them tried, but at some point it's just this strange thing that happens, like when they get it out for you, man. They're like, hey, I tried to help you now, now it's per they make it personal. Right. Sure. And like I'm now I'm gonna I'm after you.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:09

That's and that's the I would say the first responder culture. I don't think it matters whether you're fire, PD, whatever. Like you're just gonna fucking do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:18

Yeah. Um and to some extent, they probably feel like you're a cancer, you know, like we gotta get this shit out of here. Right. You'd affect everybody else, or everybody else thinks it's gonna be cool. I get it, I understand both sides.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:28

But if you looked at it differently, yeah, um, instead of being the cancer, like, hey, all right, so obviously Steve's having a hard time. We need to fix Steve.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:38

Right? But we need to we need to start somewhere versus like just hammering the shit out of him, you know, on the administrative side. Right. And now like you're one right up away from just getting terminated. Yeah. But then you have this big thing that you're fucked.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:55

Yeah, yeah, that was uh sorry, I keep pulling this thing down. Uh yeah, the Alice, that was a I just handed it to him with that one. I like when my wife had left before the same chief made me do counseling, but he didn't do it in a good way. That was just part of the documentation. That's his way of you know, any chance he got to freaking get me, he would get me.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:14

CY.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:14

Yeah, and that as well. But at the all time he's building this big case, and it wasn't just me that this kid was the type of person, they have them everywhere, every department has them. They're always the axeman or they're after everybody, or they got, you know, for whatever reason, they're out there and that happens. So um, that's just I'm just saying there's different parts of the story. There's my side, there's their side, etc. Well, there's always other sides. But the the big takeaway is, like you guys said, had I had a clue, or anybody else, if you truly know somebody's baseline, and mine was a difficult baseline because I started out partying and goofing off and like playing it pretty loose. But knowing what I know now, I can observe generally, and I see people in the street, court, wherever, I'm like, okay, you got a freaking problem. Clearly, the substance abuse is easy.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:03

Maybe it's just having gone through it that now you can recognize it in others.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:07

Yeah, that's a huge part of it. Like, just like anything else. Like, our the job, your your career is because you learned things and you recognized it's become second nature. So that's how it is with me now, generally. I mean, I don't I don't know everything and I can't read minds, but I can profiling is it works, you know. So some things are very obvious. But yeah, had we known what was going on and what to do, not only could I have saved my career and marriage, but I we could have saved these other bros, you know, lives. And a lot of people died and suffered uh, you know, needlessly. And if and since then they've can, you know, it's fired, terminated several more people after me. But at some point, yes, we have to be held accountable. We're not above the law, I get all that. It's just come on, man. Like, don't people aren't disposable. Like you were, you know, but now they're I think it sounds like they're they're doing better with ketamine integrated therapy. So well, I'll keep I don't I won't get too far off the mark here, but I ended up doing a very cheap version of ketamine therapy, like the spravato, the nasal nasal spray, but I didn't get to integrate the therapy with it. That and that alone was enough to pull me back for the brink of suicide. Because I was right there. And then um and it and then later on, I'll tell you guys later about I worked with different organizations, uh, non um sorry, nonprofits, first responders, and veterans. Worked with three of them that really helped a lot. And did I did one of those was a psychedelic and degree therapy out in Austin, and that helped that all these things really helped me to process and become more neuroplastic to change. Just that one little I don't know how to describe it, it was like drowning for years, or maybe my entire life. And then you get when things get that bad and that dark, you're just coming up for that one gulp of air that you need, and that's what those things were. Or if you're up, you're on a cliff and you need that one little purchase point to just hang on, that's that's what those treatments were to keep me from freaking. I know what bullets do to brains. You know, I there's a I know how to people, I know how to kill myself. I've seen a ton of it. And I just, I mean, by the grace of God, I hung on. And uh and I did that for multiple reasons. I like my spirituality, my faith. I wasn't sure about all that. You know, it's a very permanent thing, tripped me out, you know, but I was so close and I fully understand what people do. And I uh and then my I was like, man, I don't want to do that to my dog and my kid and my son. I mean, all this was I had so much stuff going through my head, but I just didn't I couldn't do it anymore. I couldn't suffer anymore. And I totally fully understand that now. That's a huge thing for me now. It's what I do now with substance abuse, my heart is very much into the even more so uh into the the PTS and the trauma and suicide. Those are huge issues for me. They're very personal.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:48

So you're good. You're you hearing your story, what really amazes me is that you you kept your faith through a lot of that, which I think is super rad, right? Um I mean I I'll tell you I lost my faith, and I know we talk about that a lot. Yeah, I think that's pretty typical, right? And it's cool to see that you found it again, which is very important. Sure. Um so it was tested. Yeah, no, and that's the thing, is uh you have to I think you have to be tested to really um show your true faith for your true faith for what you believe in, whatever it might be. Yep. So looking back now, what you know now, looking back at your past, what would you say to old Steven coming into the job?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:52

Well, it's a that's a tough one. It's a great one. I would first of all I'd give him a heads up. Like, hey, this is what's going on, this is why you're acting this way. The trauma, the neurology, what it does to the brain, and your thinking and behavior. How that's a I've got research on this. Uh I got to know a PhD, the director of research. She's since retired, but uh University of Arizona, and she was the head of the research department there in the psych department. She explained to me and sent me a lot of information on what chronic stress and trauma PTS does to the brain, how it affects our brains, our nervous system, our behavior and thinking. So I would tell me, like, hey, it's okay, you're not a piece of shit. You're not broken or or permanently broken. Because there's so much shame that comes with all that behavior, and you know, you don't understand any of it. So it'd tell them, like, hey, you're you're okay, you know, you're not garbage. And and that also is very common with people that grow up a lot of childhood trauma, which I did. So I would explain this to him, sit him down, tell him that he's loved, you know, love himself, um, you're not a bad person, and then just explain all the other things that I've learned since then about trauma and addiction and and why people behave the way they did. My dad was a monster because my dad had a horrible upbringing. It's generational, it gets passed down. He was horribly addicted, very violent, uh, just same similar type behavior and thinking, just much worse. Sure. So we we were ramblers, gypsies moved around, addiction, trauma, all constant poverty and violence all over the place all the time. So I would I would tell him, you know, me, young me that because it was a weird love-hate thing that I had with my dad. Like we're supposed to love him. It's my dad, my mom keeps staying with him, and then because that was a trauma cycle for sure. And then, but then I hated him for what he was doing to me and my family and and the whole situation. He was a monster. Yeah, but I would tell young Steve, like, that's why what I finally realized, which is he's been through hell, he's been you right now, or that little kid, little Steve, that was terrified and broken. So, and all those types of things, and just and then also the people that we worked with to hey, these people are gonna you're gonna have to run across the people. You're gonna become a firemen, you're gonna run across these people. Don't hate them, forgive them. Um, they're acting this way for different reasons, they're hurt too. Generally hurt, yeah, you gotta f you gotta free, uh I mean a couple uh you know, true narcissists and maybe a little sociopathy or psycho or psycho psychopathy in there somewhere. Some people just don't have empathy.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:32

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:33

You're gonna have that, especially in these types of work.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:35

Yeah, they're called psychopaths.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:36

Yeah, they're called psychopaths. Yeah, 100%. And you're gonna have that everywhere. Some of those folks are like malignant narcissists, there's different types of narcissists. But um, generally speaking, these people are they're broken, they're they're go they're these are their trauma responses. And uh and I've seen that since then, I've learned and heard their stories of them falling apart. Some of them make it to retirement, some of them don't. Um, but yeah, like that we were talking about previously. So I would and just explain how to recognize what's going on with my family, me, the people I'm gonna I work with. Um since that when we're talking about the the PTS retirements, um, this happened before nobody had taken any PTS retirements uh from Mesa Fire. Since then, at least two guys, one of them was my buddy, uh had had you know was able to do that. I was at year 12. So, you know, it would have been great to get some kind of pension or anything. Like I I forget how that works. I think you're vetted at 10, but yeah, I was just you know Yeah, you're vested at 10 with the same. Yeah, vested at 10. So the worst things, all my worst nightmares came through. True. And uh in fact, things got worse after that. But uh, you know, it wasn't until I was able to finally figure these things out, find these therapies that I was really truly able to start healing. So yeah, it was rough.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:01

I'm proud of you, buddy.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:03

Thank you. Yeah, it was a but a crazy ride.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:06

No, I I think I think what you're doing now, I mean, you're obviously helping other people, but you're still working on yourself, which is amazing to hear. Because we talk almost every day at work, so it's it's nice to to, you know, uh shoot the shit with you, but also you know, throw ideas back and forth, like, hey, I got this. What what are your thoughts on this or whatever? Totally. Um, and we're still and it's weird because we're dealing with the work culture now, right? We're used to the first responder culture where we could say certain things and do certain things, but yeah, now we gotta be corporate. Yeah, that's a trip. Fucking shitty. Yeah, it's a trip.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:46

Like, yeah, 100%. That's a whole nother whole nother animal. Yeah, yeah, because they have no clue what it's like for to do the type of work that we've done. And then obviously the culture in general has changed since then in politics, so it's it's yeah, it's all different. But uh, yeah, I I'm grateful, super grateful to be, you know, paying it forward. That's you know, that's where my passion's at. I mean, I get to save lives in a different way. Yeah, but I mean, I in some way I'm trying to get through to people, and I'm not even working with first responders or veterans yet. You know, I wanted to do that one day, but I'm just working with the general public and people coming out of jail, court, homeless folks, whomever. The kind of people I did not want to deal with back when I was a firefighter. Right. Crazy how things changed, but it made it really helped with the healing process and opened my heart back up. I was so hardened and broken and numb, you know. That's why I was trying to stay high and drunk all the time and do anything I could to stay numb. I didn't want to feel all that shit. No way, man. It was too much. So yeah, it's nice to now that I recognize the behaviors and um yeah, I had I had a coup some other very traumatic things that happened after that. And uh and just the worse it got, the more intense it got, the more that I lost, the things that I lost, the people, my freedom, you know, all those different things, uh really turned the cranked up the heat and turned you know, turned it up to where if you can just stay around long enough to get to get some help and survive all that, that's when the healing and the resiliency comes. And then also just the compassion for other people, yourself and other people.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:23

So that's yeah, I've I'm very grateful. I'm starting to feel again, you know, I'm starting to appre like love people again, love myself, which is a huge thing. You know, it was a lot to go through where I just I did not like or trust people, did not even like or trust myself. You know, just a lot of shame that comes with all that. But yeah, once you start you make make it through there, start uh changing all that, start help actually helping some folks, like holy crap. There's life after all that. And that's why this the suicide thing for me is really touchy. You know, we've all lost people, yeah, you know, including this year. And I'm like, yeah, man, if I could just I can't change the fact, I can't help save it, you know, do anything about those folks, but in the future I'll I'll definitely try. Like if they just knew this, this, and this, you know, they yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna be hard. It's gonna, it's gonna be a while. Yeah, you know, it's gonna hurt, it's gonna be a struggle, it's gonna be a grind, but like, man, it gets better. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:19

So sometimes that pain's worth it. Yeah, it's you know, in a weird in a weird way. Totally. Like, I know people are like, well, how's pain helpful? But it's like going through it, you really appreciate what's on the other end.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:32

Completely. Yeah, that's it, that's the amazing part. Like, it absolutely I finally found my relationship with God, like, so that really solidified the faith. Like, I was trying to blame him for freaking everything when it was largely me and people, you know, made all those things happen or just life. And then um, yeah, just get to where like I was talking about, where I truly had this compassion for other people and the understanding it's so worth it. Um, I just you know, like you guys, I really miss the people that I lost. Still, um that's always gonna be an issue. Um, you know, that I still have, you know, I still have nightmares, I still have my hard days, freaking cry a lot yesterday. I was telling Patrick yesterday it was one of those mornings, woke up, just could not, it was just pouring out. And the old me would have been like, oh, I know how to fix this. You know, I'm gonna go freaking get higher, get drunk, or whatever. And I just felt uh sat with it, let it just pour out. As men were were like, man, like stop that crying, or I'll give you something to cry about, that kind of crap. It's not just men, women, you know, people women are raised that way as well. And just but I think more so admin, it's like we're not allowed to. Right. And you cannot hold that crap inside. That's toxic. It's so toxic. So when I see guys crying, depends on the person and the type. Like, you better have a real reason. Otherwise, put some dirt on it and the cowboy up. You know, no, I uh but you know, when I see I see that vulnerability, and I'm like, okay, that's healing. That's vulnerable, you know, that's good. That's the good stuff. That's where it starts. Yeah, we it's a release valve, it's a pro-book valve. You know, so we yeah, I can't imagine trying to hold this inside our entire lives and a lot of us have tried to. So yeah, no, so I have a much big better idea and a bigger picture of what's happening, and it's happening all throughout cultural society. All you have to do is look at the homeless folks, the that that rate, there, these are epidemic, uh, epidemic proportions, suicide, homelessness, drug addiction, all these horrible things. And I mean, there's a time when I only wanted to work with firefighters, police, and military, but I'm like, man, there's so much bigger demographic out there. And then for this position that I have doing peer recovery for the city of Tempe, it's a pilot program. Uh, not only do I get it reach larger people, but it obviously it's another shot at another career, city job, it's which is great. You know, it's not all the for-profits and nonprofits that operate like this.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:52

Well, you you're giving a uh a second chance a purpose, right? And I and I don't maybe I shouldn't say second chance, but you're giving that opportunity to use your your experience, right? Good and bad, indifferent, right? At a at a way that is purposeful for you to help help folks. And I I think that's fucking killer. It is super cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:16

Yeah, it's that's the that's the part of life that started to get good again. I'm like, oh crap. You know, I've there not only am I passionate about it, but I'm like, now I have a sense of purpose again. Where I lost that. You know, there's a time when I was with the fire department, I was just like, this ugh, I just I didn't want any of it.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:32

You were the same salty guys you talked about that were there when you first started. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:37

Yeah, I just got to where I didn't want my marriage, I didn't want my job, I didn't want anything. And I I just didn't see all this and understand it all. Yeah, 100%. So yeah, it's uh it feels good to breathe, be able to breathe again. Like I'm like I see him color again, I see sunsets and beauty, and I constantly catch myself, you know, on the ground freaking looking at puppies and kittens and babies and you should try and minibles and the mini donkeys.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:03

Those are really sweet. Those are awesome, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:04

The little freaking goats. Yeah, things that make me cry. I'm a you know, I'm a bit stupid, like cry commercials and movies all the time. But I don't mind. I'm like, oh yeah, this is what being human feels like again. Right. Or maybe even some experience some things that I never experienced as a child because that shit was shoved down, shove shoved down. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's been an amazing experience, and I'm super excited about the future, and possibly going back to school like Patrick, and and I don't know, we'll see what the future brings. But I mean, it's a lot brighter than it used to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:33

Good for you, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:34

Yeah, and I and I'm meeting wonderful people like yourselves, like there's we can still help more than others. Well, hey, there's no thing. The shoe fits.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:44

Yeah, so no, it's you've already got enough bromances, you need to slow down. That's true.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:51

I watched that that bromance. I've seen that from afar. It's pretty enticing.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:57

No, I I that keep up doing what you're doing. Thank you. Um I appreciate you coming on, sharing the story. I know, I know it's it's difficult. It is difficult to talk about negative parts of yourself, but I'm glad you've forgiven yourself and and moved on.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:13

Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. You guys are awesome. That's a huge part of it. Like you you have to if you're gonna heal. That's part of resiliency. You've you know you've gotta just own it and then forgive yourself and love yourself to some extent. And it's hard, it's a day-by-day, hour by hour grind sometimes, you know, just like sobriety. But uh, you know, I just I'm just glad I survived it when so many good people didn't. Yeah. So we'll see if we can save some people, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:41

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:42

Anything else?

SPEAKER_05 1:25:43

No. This is awesome. Your story is definitely gonna impact a lot of people as well. And it's gonna help people, you know, acknowledge what they don't want to acknowledge.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:53

I hope so. Yeah, I I you know, I uh for years or even all the way coming over here, I'm trying to figure out what to say. And it just it's nice you guys chilled me out. I could just a lot of it just organically came out. But that was the whole intent was to help people. It's that because it's it is hard being in the hot seat. Yeah, not fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:10

I'm I'm eager to see who who it actually impacts because there's a lot of people that are probably dealing with your situation that are hiding it. Yeah, right. So they're just barely hanging on, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:25

And it's just that one thing that's either gonna break it or make it. What is it? What's gonna be right?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:32

But there there is help out there. Yeah, we have amazing therapies and and people that care for social media.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:37

A lot of like culturally competent people now, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:40

Yeah, more and more and more people are coming out of the woodwork they're doing these therapies. So uh I love that things are getting better in that respect. Good for you, yeah. Thank you for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:48

Yeah, thanks for being here. All right, well, stay tuned for the next episode. Thanks.